tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post6112599031699757520..comments2024-02-28T16:05:36.643-06:00Comments on Hack & Slash: On the Creative Crocodile Conundrum-Chttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comBlogger12125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-54914204551552206442011-10-17T16:03:43.170-05:002011-10-17T16:03:43.170-05:00Perhaps it is best to remember that we are talking...Perhaps it is best to remember that we are talking about a game. And however these other people who are less creative enjoy playing said game, they should be allowed to do so. Imaginative people will grow out of leaning on skills and die rolls to generate an outcome and instead rely on their own abilities as a player. Or they won't, and they'll either enjoy the game and rolling the dice or they'll stop playing. Either way, play with the type of people you prefer to be with, and I don't really think anything less of the people who aren't as artistic as myself. (Or at least I try not to, right?) I am well aware that there are other people who are infinitely more creative than myself, and I can hope they don't think less of me for it.Dominiquenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-57411192591568336522011-10-09T01:29:11.849-05:002011-10-09T01:29:11.849-05:00I think this was a great article and frotz comment...I think this was a great article and frotz comment was a great comment. I'm tired right now so I can't say much else, but skills definitely make players less creative.<br /><br />No matter what the DM asks the answer now is, I roll a die. How do you deal with a crocodile, by rolling a d20 and letting the numbers or DM tell you what happened. Your just pretending your being creative by picking a skill. And maybe being moderately creative by describing how the skill works.<br /><br />Without skills, you can come up with far more ways to deal with anything. Hmm I guess I wasn't to tired to add more.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00899964934488037629noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-77137933665152955352011-10-07T21:12:19.693-05:002011-10-07T21:12:19.693-05:00@Frotz Self
Thanks for the comment. I think it'...@Frotz Self<br />Thanks for the comment. I think it's a harsh thing to say, but I think harsh is gonna be the new politically correct in the coming years.<br /><br />I am classically trained in debate, and don't mind a debate or an argument - even against people who haven't codified their thinking or augmentation into ordered rational ideas.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-82607369405694052502011-10-07T20:58:51.087-05:002011-10-07T20:58:51.087-05:00Are modern gamers objectively less creative than o...<i>Are modern gamers objectively less creative than old school gamers?</i><br />I've been playing a 3.5 game for the past month or so with people who've pretty much only played 3.0 or newer. I have to say, based on the limited experience with these folks, <b>yes</b>, new-school players seem to be less capable of creative (or even critical) thinking.<br /><br />I used to be somewhat skeptical that a codified, comprehensive skill system (such as that used in the 3.x system) somehow limited player imagination, but playing with this group, (and in thinking back, with the last group I played 3.5 with as well) makes me think I was wrong.<br /><br />An example: One of the party members playing a thief (sorry, rogue who steals stuff) has taken a feat to make all Knowledge skills class skills. The player himself has little familiarity with the game setting, and isn't sure which of his selected Knowledge skills will help him to know something about the history of the area we're in (to which his character is a foreigner). The player struggles and struggle, thinking he took the wrong skills. I mention to him that my character is from the area and knows there's a city with a University some distance away but within the same region; perhaps his thief could go there, beg use of their library, and do a little research. I'll accompany him, as my spellcaster could likewise make use of the library there. The player in question was <b>stunned</b> by this, I kid you not, like I'd offered him up some pearl of great price or something.<br /><br />During character creation, without fail every character was assembled with statistics, skills, and feats to meet the prerequisites for prestige classes. We are playing 1st-level characters, and these folks are pre-building their characters for the day they hit 5th or 8th or whatever. I guess they're just biding their time until then, expecting the DM to keep throwing monsters and loot at us (but never more than we can handle!) until we've hit that level. I was the only player who picked up a hireling, and I was the only one who had (and still has) no end-game planned for my character beyond the standard gold/power/knowledge acquisition that all first-level characters need.<br /><br />Man, and that thread on noism's site? A trainwreck. Great job making your points there, -C, but some of those people would rather argue then debate, if you catch my meaning.Frotz Selfhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/06246983739730328348noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-64677614771982236062011-10-07T19:38:16.999-05:002011-10-07T19:38:16.999-05:00Or the worst.
By emphasizing player skill, and by...Or the worst.<br /><br /><i>By emphasizing player skill, and by largely relying on it, you're creating a situation where certain players 'game' the system.</i><br /><br />The game favours people who are good at the game, in other words. I don't see why many people have a problem with this in D&D but not in other games.Johnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07090296806321882601noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-85678742593686400562011-10-07T16:31:21.110-05:002011-10-07T16:31:21.110-05:00This system also relies to a great extent on the a...This system also relies to a great extent on the ability of individual players to convince the DM. That means that regardless of what character you are playing - you're only ever playing yourself.<br /><br />I've experienced this issue in groups many times. The persuasive communicator gets a lot more done without rolls than the person who is shy, or who had difficulty communicating.<br /><br />By emphasizing player skill, and by largely relying on it, you're creating a situation where certain players 'game' the system. The DM might not think he's being unreasonable, he's just being more reasonable for people he likes or gets along with.<br /><br />Dice and modifiers - they don't make subjective decisions, and they allow for results outside of a players knowledge but within the character's knowledge. I don't know bugger all about how to find a trap, but my thief characters always have.<br /><br />So I walk a line in my games. I'll encourage the discussion/negotiation side of it, but I'll let the player roll the dice if he wants to. Gives me the best of both worlds.Jeremy Murphyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17072164588443858336noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-60691766572966311802011-10-07T11:33:45.933-05:002011-10-07T11:33:45.933-05:00Well said, -C!Well said, -C!thekelvingreenhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01928260185408072124noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-89056253873946516602011-10-07T10:00:01.082-05:002011-10-07T10:00:01.082-05:00As an addendum, I would say my thoughts on this de...As an addendum, I would say my thoughts on this definitely depend on how the encounter with the crocodile is framed. I certainly agree that die rolls aren't neccessary or desirable for mundane tasks or incidents to the meat of the adventure.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-9604456863734378352011-10-07T09:55:03.775-05:002011-10-07T09:55:03.775-05:00Convincing a crocodile presumably has death as a p...Convincing a crocodile presumably has death as a potential consequence (rule 3). Also, does the crocodile wish to be convinced? If not (and I assume not), you're in as much competition against him as you are against a bugbear you're slapping with a sword.<br /><br />Now, I'm assuming here a relatively quick interaction. If this is a "ask the crocodile what he wants and go on a quest for it," then that's another situation entirely.<br /><br />Your "fate" (your game fate) is as much dependent on your player skill rolling the die here as it is rolling a die in combat--and I have never encountered any player's who didn't seem to experience a sense of victory from winning a challenging combat, so I'm inclined to say you're overreaching here.Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-39330762847041874832011-10-07T09:35:03.771-05:002011-10-07T09:35:03.771-05:00@Trey, Zak S has a wonderful theory of dice rolls ...@Trey, Zak S has a wonderful theory of dice rolls and when they are needed. <br /><br />"(1) trying to do something quickly, (2) in competition with someone else, (3) with death (or "failing-to get to play with the PC you patiently levelled up") as the consequence, and (4) successful performance isn't remotely model-able at the table "<br /><br />You "convince" the crocodile with "skill" by finding out what it wants, and solving the problem in any manner you see fit. That is dependent on player skill, and can be shown at the table.<br /><br />Those are the objective reasons to apply the roll to one and not the other.<br /><br />As to the second part - <i>because they are responsible for their success or failure in play</i>. Knowing that your fate is dependent on you makes it mean something real.-Chttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02331863932906631618noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-48537918314866332662011-10-07T09:09:43.336-05:002011-10-07T09:09:43.336-05:00You explanation of why you can use your personal s...You explanation of why you can use your personal skill to convince a crocodile, but not to swing your axe is false at face. You are no more "convincing a crocodile" with your "skill" at the table than you are swinging an axe. There is no crocodile actually there to convince, anymore than there's any axe to swing.<br /><br />You're convincing the GM, if indeed anyone is convinced. The process is no different than allowing the GM to determine if you hit with an axe.<br /><br />You're free to prefer to roll for one thing on the other, but there is no objective reason (other than "that's the way the game's written") to apply a roll to one and not the other.<br /><br />This bit I don't understand:<br /><br /><i>"The whole skill system is a crutch because it allows them to fail without feeling personally responsible, among other reasons."</i><br /><br />Why is it desirable that anyone feel personably responsible for failing?Treyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04647628467658839351noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-6578125233291915532.post-86250201611399420142011-10-07T07:51:32.731-05:002011-10-07T07:51:32.731-05:00I've all but eliminated 'skill' rolls ...I've all but eliminated 'skill' rolls in my current game. Only when there is doubt do I bother making the players roll for success, and I find that it works wonderfully. They're a lot more creative, less restrained, and also having much more fun.Simon Forsterhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01243845335993440168noreply@blogger.com